People say “the United Order isn’t socialism,” but the actual history of early Mormonism tells a much different—and much more interesting—story.
Joseph Smith grew up in the Burned-Over District of western New York, one of the most communitarian regions in America. Shakers, Perfectionists, Rappites, Fourierist groups, and Owenite Christian socialists were everywhere. Shared property, cooperative labor, and “Christian commonwealth” economics were part of the culture surrounding Palmyra and Manchester.
The early revelations reflect that world. The Law of Consecration describes giving property to a central storehouse, redistributing resources “according to need,” and using surplus for the poor. That’s the same language used by the Christian communal movements of the era.
The Morley Family in Kirtland was already living a Christian commune before joining Joseph—shared labor, shared property, joint stewardship. Early Mormonism absorbed that model directly.
Nauvoo later attracted the Icarian socialists, a French utopian movement, because they saw the Saints as fellow communitarians with compatible economic ideals. Many early converts also came from Shaker, Perfectionist, Campbellite, and Owenite backgrounds, where cooperative living was normal.
Under Brigham Young, the United Order became even more communal. Orderville (1875) functioned as a full agrarian commune: common dining, shared clothing, no private property, collective labor, and goods distributed by need. Historians routinely compare it to the Amana Colonies and other 19th-century communal societies.
The idea that “it wasn’t socialism” only becomes standard in the Cold War, when the Church wanted to distance itself from anything that sounded communal. Before that, LDS leaders openly described the United Order as a higher form of Christian communalism.
It wasn’t Marxist-Leninist. But historically, it fits squarely within the 19th-century Christian socialist and communitarian tradition. That’s simply what the record shows.
-Here’s a firm but respectful reply that uses history to undercut the standard LDS talking point *without* being snarky, while showing exactly how deeply intertwined the United Order was with 19th-century communitarian socialism:
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I get why people say “the United Order isn’t socialism,” because modern Church rhetoric tries to draw a bright line between the two. But if you look at the actual history of the early Church—and the broader context of the 1820s–1880s—the connections are impossible to miss.
**1. Joseph Smith grew up in the “Burned-Over District,” the most communitarian, proto-socialist region in America.** Western New York in the 1820s and 30s was packed with communal experiments: Shakers, Rappites, Fourierist groups, Perfectionists, and early socialists influenced by Robert Owen. This wasn’t happening far away—this was literally the cultural air of Palmyra and Manchester. Joseph grew up in a world where religious communalism and economic collectivism were normal features of revivalist Christianity.
**2. The Law of Consecration itself came straight out of that communitarian Protestant environment.** The early revelations (D&C 42, 51, 78, 82, 104) explicitly describe a shared stewardship economy: property consecrated to a central bishop’s storehouse, goods redistributed “according to need,” and surplus used for the poor. That’s not capitalism. It’s the same communal, cooperative economic vision circulating among Protestant radicals all over the region.
**3. The Morley Family in Kirtland *already practiced* a Christian socialist commune before joining Joseph.** When Lyman Wight brought the missionaries to Kirtland, the Isaac Morley “Family” was living a literal religious commune—shared labor, shared property, joint stewardship. Joseph didn’t invent that; he adopted and adapted it. Even Mormon historians acknowledge the Morleys were straight-up communitarian Christians in the Owenite–Perfectionist orbit.
**4. Nauvoo attracted communitarians—including the Icarian socialists.** Most Latter-day Saints today have never learned this, but after Joseph’s death, Étienne Cabet’s *Icarian* movement (a French utopian socialist group) settled in Nauvoo. Why? Because they saw the Latter-day Saints as fellow communitarians with compatible values around shared property, cooperative economics, and an earthly Zion. That overlap didn’t come out of nowhere—it came from decades of LDS practice.
**5. Many early converts had socialist or communitarian backgrounds.** The early Church was full of people from communitarian or cooperative sects—Shakers, Campbellite reformers, Perfectionists, Owenite sympathizers, and even labor-movement radicals. Mormonism appealed to them *because* its economic vision aligned with the Christian commonwealth ideals circulating in America at the time.
**6. The United Order revival under Brigham Young was openly communal and explicitly anti-capitalist.** Orderville (founded 1875) was basically a functioning agrarian commune. Members ate in common, wore standardized clothing, shared labor, owned no private property, and distributed goods based on need. Scholars routinely compare Orderville to the Amana colonies and other communalist movements of the era. Brigham Young himself called capitalism a “monster” that would destroy Zion if allowed in.
**7. The only reason the Church now says “it’s not socialism” is that Cold War politics made the comparison embarrassing.** Before the 1950s, LDS leaders had no issue calling the United Order *a higher form of Christian communalism*. The sudden rhetorical shift came during the McCarthy era, when anything that sounded socialist had to be rebranded or denied.
So sure—the United Order isn’t identical to Marxist-Leninism. It predates Marx. It’s religious rather than materialist. But historically speaking? **It sits squarely in the American Christian socialist and communitarian tradition of the 19th century.** That’s not an insult—it’s simply what the historical record shows.
July is devoted to the scientific study of the great beyond: paranormal, parapsychology, ufology, cryptozoology and more! Did you know? Many writers and enthusiasts prefer the abbreviation "SF" over "sci-fi" due to the latter's perceived pejorative connotations. Coined by Forrest J Ackerman in 1954, "sci-fi" was intended as a playful term analogous to "hi-fi." However, over time, it became associated with low-budget films and pulp fiction, leading to a dismissive perception among serious fans and authors. In contrast, "SF" is seen as a more respectful abbreviation, encompassing both "science fiction" and "speculative fiction," and is favored within the literary community. Additionally, some writers opt for "speculative fiction" to describe their work, aiming to distance themselves from the negative stereotypes linked to "sci-fi."
June is the month when school is out and wild summer parties begin. That's why this month is focused on religious animation and puppetry, mostly originally designed for children, but these are not recommended for kids under 18 because they include some controversial material such as material produced by the scandalized religious group the Family International aka Children of God and the Lost Media Christian show Joy Junction that was pulled from air after illegal files were found on one of the cast members' computers. Other things, like the ISKCON Puppet show, the Muslim program Life With Adam and the Chabad Jewish Cartoon 613 Torah Ave. are just good clean fun that has aged like a fine wine - with all the analog creepiness that one can expect from 1980s and 90s religious kids' programming.
Ramadan Mubarak! This year the holy month of Ramadan goes from Evening of Fri, Feb 28, 2025 – Sat, Mar 29, 2025 so all March HithertoExisting will be sharing Muslim and Baha'i videos! Did you know? Bahá'ís observe a 19-day fast each year in March, which is similar to the Muslim observance of Ramadan. The Bahá'í fast is a time of spiritual preparation and regeneration. Fasting period: The fast takes place from sunrise to sunset each day. It occurs during the Bahá'í month of 'Ala, which means "loftiness". The fast ends at the festival of Naw Ruz, which is on the vernal equinox. Purpose of the fast: To remember one's dependence on God To learn detachment from material things To practice abstinence from carnal desires To rejuvenate one's inner spiritual life To bring to mind the deprivation experienced by prophets
Religious minds, which are distrustful of philosophic dogmas, fall into the error - inculcated by philosophy - of supposing that Providence is limited in its action; that is does not extend to the social world or the social relations of mankind, and that God has not determined upon any plan of social organization for the regulation of those relations. If they had a PROFOUND FAITH IN THE UNIVERSALITY OF PROVIDENCE, they would be convinced that all human needs must have been foreseen and provided for, and especially that the most urgent of them all could not have been overlooked - namely, the need of a social order for the regulation of our industrial and social relations.
hithertoexisting
People say “the United Order isn’t socialism,” but the actual history of early Mormonism tells a much different—and much more interesting—story.
Joseph Smith grew up in the Burned-Over District of western New York, one of the most communitarian regions in America. Shakers, Perfectionists, Rappites, Fourierist groups, and Owenite Christian socialists were everywhere. Shared property, cooperative labor, and “Christian commonwealth” economics were part of the culture surrounding Palmyra and Manchester.
The early revelations reflect that world. The Law of Consecration describes giving property to a central storehouse, redistributing resources “according to need,” and using surplus for the poor. That’s the same language used by the Christian communal movements of the era.
The Morley Family in Kirtland was already living a Christian commune before joining Joseph—shared labor, shared property, joint stewardship. Early Mormonism absorbed that model directly.
Nauvoo later attracted the Icarian socialists, a French utopian movement, because they saw the Saints as fellow communitarians with compatible economic ideals. Many early converts also came from Shaker, Perfectionist, Campbellite, and Owenite backgrounds, where cooperative living was normal.
Under Brigham Young, the United Order became even more communal. Orderville (1875) functioned as a full agrarian commune: common dining, shared clothing, no private property, collective labor, and goods distributed by need. Historians routinely compare it to the Amana Colonies and other 19th-century communal societies.
The idea that “it wasn’t socialism” only becomes standard in the Cold War, when the Church wanted to distance itself from anything that sounded communal. Before that, LDS leaders openly described the United Order as a higher form of Christian communalism.
It wasn’t Marxist-Leninist. But historically, it fits squarely within the 19th-century Christian socialist and communitarian tradition. That’s simply what the record shows.
-Here’s a firm but respectful reply that uses history to undercut the standard LDS talking point *without* being snarky, while showing exactly how deeply intertwined the United Order was with 19th-century communitarian socialism:
---
I get why people say “the United Order isn’t socialism,” because modern Church rhetoric tries to draw a bright line between the two. But if you look at the actual history of the early Church—and the broader context of the 1820s–1880s—the connections are impossible to miss.
**1. Joseph Smith grew up in the “Burned-Over District,” the most communitarian, proto-socialist region in America.**
Western New York in the 1820s and 30s was packed with communal experiments: Shakers, Rappites, Fourierist groups, Perfectionists, and early socialists influenced by Robert Owen. This wasn’t happening far away—this was literally the cultural air of Palmyra and Manchester. Joseph grew up in a world where religious communalism and economic collectivism were normal features of revivalist Christianity.
**2. The Law of Consecration itself came straight out of that communitarian Protestant environment.**
The early revelations (D&C 42, 51, 78, 82, 104) explicitly describe a shared stewardship economy: property consecrated to a central bishop’s storehouse, goods redistributed “according to need,” and surplus used for the poor. That’s not capitalism. It’s the same communal, cooperative economic vision circulating among Protestant radicals all over the region.
**3. The Morley Family in Kirtland *already practiced* a Christian socialist commune before joining Joseph.**
When Lyman Wight brought the missionaries to Kirtland, the Isaac Morley “Family” was living a literal religious commune—shared labor, shared property, joint stewardship. Joseph didn’t invent that; he adopted and adapted it. Even Mormon historians acknowledge the Morleys were straight-up communitarian Christians in the Owenite–Perfectionist orbit.
**4. Nauvoo attracted communitarians—including the Icarian socialists.**
Most Latter-day Saints today have never learned this, but after Joseph’s death, Étienne Cabet’s *Icarian* movement (a French utopian socialist group) settled in Nauvoo. Why? Because they saw the Latter-day Saints as fellow communitarians with compatible values around shared property, cooperative economics, and an earthly Zion. That overlap didn’t come out of nowhere—it came from decades of LDS practice.
**5. Many early converts had socialist or communitarian backgrounds.**
The early Church was full of people from communitarian or cooperative sects—Shakers, Campbellite reformers, Perfectionists, Owenite sympathizers, and even labor-movement radicals. Mormonism appealed to them *because* its economic vision aligned with the Christian commonwealth ideals circulating in America at the time.
**6. The United Order revival under Brigham Young was openly communal and explicitly anti-capitalist.**
Orderville (founded 1875) was basically a functioning agrarian commune. Members ate in common, wore standardized clothing, shared labor, owned no private property, and distributed goods based on need. Scholars routinely compare Orderville to the Amana colonies and other communalist movements of the era. Brigham Young himself called capitalism a “monster” that would destroy Zion if allowed in.
**7. The only reason the Church now says “it’s not socialism” is that Cold War politics made the comparison embarrassing.**
Before the 1950s, LDS leaders had no issue calling the United Order *a higher form of Christian communalism*. The sudden rhetorical shift came during the McCarthy era, when anything that sounded socialist had to be rebranded or denied.
So sure—the United Order isn’t identical to Marxist-Leninism. It predates Marx. It’s religious rather than materialist. But historically speaking?
**It sits squarely in the American Christian socialist and communitarian tradition of the 19th century.**
That’s not an insult—it’s simply what the historical record shows.
1 month ago | [YT] | 2
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hithertoexisting
July is devoted to the scientific study of the great beyond: paranormal, parapsychology, ufology, cryptozoology and more! Did you know? Many writers and enthusiasts prefer the abbreviation "SF" over "sci-fi" due to the latter's perceived pejorative connotations. Coined by Forrest J Ackerman in 1954, "sci-fi" was intended as a playful term analogous to "hi-fi." However, over time, it became associated with low-budget films and pulp fiction, leading to a dismissive perception among serious fans and authors. In contrast, "SF" is seen as a more respectful abbreviation, encompassing both "science fiction" and "speculative fiction," and is favored within the literary community. Additionally, some writers opt for "speculative fiction" to describe their work, aiming to distance themselves from the negative stereotypes linked to "sci-fi."
6 months ago | [YT] | 4
View 5 replies
hithertoexisting
June is the month when school is out and wild summer parties begin. That's why this month is focused on religious animation and puppetry, mostly originally designed for children, but these are not recommended for kids under 18 because they include some controversial material such as material produced by the scandalized religious group the Family International aka Children of God and the Lost Media Christian show Joy Junction that was pulled from air after illegal files were found on one of the cast members' computers. Other things, like the ISKCON Puppet show, the Muslim program Life With Adam and the Chabad Jewish Cartoon 613 Torah Ave. are just good clean fun that has aged like a fine wine - with all the analog creepiness that one can expect from 1980s and 90s religious kids' programming.
7 months ago | [YT] | 2
View 2 replies
hithertoexisting
Ramadan Mubarak! This year the holy month of Ramadan goes from Evening of Fri, Feb 28, 2025 – Sat, Mar 29, 2025 so all March HithertoExisting will be sharing Muslim and Baha'i videos! Did you know? Bahá'ís observe a 19-day fast each year in March, which is similar to the Muslim observance of Ramadan. The Bahá'í fast is a time of spiritual preparation and regeneration.
Fasting period:
The fast takes place from sunrise to sunset each day.
It occurs during the Bahá'í month of 'Ala, which means "loftiness".
The fast ends at the festival of Naw Ruz, which is on the vernal equinox.
Purpose of the fast:
To remember one's dependence on God
To learn detachment from material things
To practice abstinence from carnal desires
To rejuvenate one's inner spiritual life
To bring to mind the deprivation experienced by prophets
#Ramadan #19dayfast #islam
10 months ago | [YT] | 0
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hithertoexisting
Religious minds, which are distrustful of philosophic dogmas, fall into the error - inculcated by philosophy - of supposing that Providence is limited in its action; that is does not extend to the social world or the social relations of mankind, and that God has not determined upon any plan of social organization for the regulation of those relations. If they had a PROFOUND FAITH IN THE UNIVERSALITY OF PROVIDENCE, they would be convinced that all human needs must have been foreseen and provided for, and especially that the most urgent of them all could not have been overlooked - namely, the need of a social order for the regulation of our industrial and social relations.
Charles Fourier
1 year ago | [YT] | 2
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hithertoexisting
This one's for you, Jesus
2 years ago | [YT] | 0
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