Below is an exploration of a theological perspective that Satan was not cast out of heaven until the events described in Revelation 12:7-9, focusing on biblical evidence, interpretive challenges, and implications. This perspective contrasts with the more common view that Satan’s fall occurred before the creation of humanity (often tied to Isaiah 14:12-15 and Ezekiel 28:12-17). This exploration is structured to provide a clear argument, supported by scripture, while acknowledging alternative interpretations.
The Case for Satan Not Being Cast Out of Heaven Until Revelation 12:7-9
The traditional Christian narrative often holds that Satan, originally an angel named Lucifer, was cast out of heaven due to pride and rebellion before the events of Genesis, setting the stage for his temptation of Adam and Eve. This view primarily draws from Isaiah 14:12-15 and Ezekiel 28:12-17, interpreted as describing Satan’s primordial fall. However, an alternative theological perspective posits that Satan retained access to heaven until the events described in Revelation 12:7-9, where he is explicitly cast out after a war in heaven. This draft examines biblical evidence supporting the idea that Satan’s expulsion occurred later, specifically in the context of Revelation, and explores the implications of this view for understanding Satan’s role in salvation history.
Primary Biblical Evidence: Revelation 12:7-9 The most explicit description of Satan’s expulsion from heaven appears in Revelation 12:7-9 (KJV): “And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”
This passage depicts a cosmic battle where Satan (the dragon) and his angels are defeated by Michael and cast out of heaven. Several elements suggest this event occurs later in salvation history, potentially during or after Christ’s earthly ministry, rather than before creation:
1. Timing in Revelation’s Narrative: Revelation 12 is part of a visionary sequence often interpreted as encompassing events from Christ’s birth (Revelation 12:1-5, with the woman and child symbolizing Mary and Jesus) to eschatological events. The war in heaven follows the child’s ascension (Revelation 12:5), suggesting a connection to Christ’s victory through his death, resurrection, and ascension. This implies Satan’s expulsion is a consequence of Christ’s work, not a pre-creation event.
2. Definitive Language: The phrase “neither was their place found any more in heaven” indicates a final exclusion from heaven, suggesting Satan had access until this point. This contrasts with earlier scriptures where Satan appears in heaven (e.g., Job 1:6-7), supporting the idea that his expulsion is a later development.
3. Link to Christ’s Victory: Revelation 12:10-11 connects Satan’s casting out to the “salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ,” emphasizing the blood of the Lamb and the testimony of believers. This ties the event to the New Testament era, particularly the triumph of the cross, rather than a pre-Genesis fall.
Supporting Scriptures Indicating Satan’s Access to Heaven: Several passages suggest Satan retained access to heaven prior to the events of Revelation 12, challenging the idea of an early expulsion:
1. Job 1:6-7 and 2:1-2 (KJV): “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.” - In Job, Satan appears in God’s heavenly court among the “sons of God” (a term often denoting angels). His presence in heaven, coupled with his report of roaming the earth, suggests he still had access to the divine presence. This is significant because Job is typically dated after the events of Genesis, implying Satan was not yet fully cast out.
2. Zechariah 3:1-2 (KJV): “And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan…” - Here, Satan is depicted in a heavenly setting, accusing Joshua before God. His role as an accuser in God’s presence suggests he still operated within heaven’s courts, consistent with a pre-Revelation access to heaven.
3. Luke 10:18 (KJV): “And he [Jesus] said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.” - While often cited as evidence of an early fall, this verse can be interpreted as Jesus prophetically witnessing Satan’s defeat tied to his earthly ministry. The context (the disciples’ success in casting out demons) and the timing (during Jesus’ life) suggest this “fall” may align with the Revelation 12 event, occurring as a result of Christ’s work rather than before creation.
These passages collectively imply that Satan, while rebellious, maintained some access to heaven—perhaps as an accuser or adversary—until a decisive expulsion in Revelation 12.
Reinterpreting Traditional “Fall” Passages: The traditional view of Satan’s pre-creation fall relies heavily on Isaiah 14:12-15 and Ezekiel 28:12-17, but these passages can be understood differently in light of the Revelation 12 perspective:
1. Isaiah 14:12-15 (KJV): “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground… For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven…” - Contextually, this passage addresses the king of Babylon, with “Lucifer” (a Latin term meaning “morning star”) symbolizing human pride. While often applied to Satan, its primary focus is earthly judgment. If interpreted as referring to Satan, it could be a prophetic foreshadowing of the Revelation 12 event rather than a historical pre-creation fall.
2. Ezekiel 28:12-17 (KJV): “Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus… Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee… I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God…” - This lamentation targets the king of Tyre but uses imagery (e.g., “covering cherub”) that some apply to Satan. Like Isaiah, it may symbolically point to Satan’s eventual expulsion in Revelation rather than a primordial event. The language of being cast out aligns with Revelation 12’s narrative.
In both cases, these Old Testament passages may describe Satan’s ultimate downfall in a typological or prophetic sense, fulfilled in Revelation 12, rather than documenting a pre-Genesis expulsion.
If Satan was not cast out of heaven until Revelation 12, several theological implications arise:
1. Satan’s Role as Accuser: Scriptures like Job and Zechariah portray Satan as an accuser in God’s court, a role he may have held until Christ’s victory. Revelation 12:10 notes that the “accuser of our brethren” is cast down, suggesting the cross and resurrection stripped Satan of this heavenly function, fulfilling Jesus’ defeat of the powers of evil (Colossians 2:15).
2. Christ’s Victory as Pivotal: This view emphasizes the cross as the decisive moment in cosmic history, not only redeeming humanity but also triggering Satan’s expulsion from heaven. It underscores the centrality of Christ’s work in altering the spiritual order.
3. Eschatological Context: Revelation 12 may describe a future or ongoing spiritual reality rather than a single historical event. Some interpret it as occurring at Christ’s ascension, others as a future eschatological judgment. This flexibility allows the passage to encompass both the cross’s immediate impact and its ultimate fulfillment.
Challenges and Counterarguments This perspective faces several challenges:
1. Traditional Pre-Creation Fall: The view that Satan fell before Genesis is deeply rooted, supported by the serpent’s role in Genesis 3 and the assumption that Satan’s rebellion predates human sin. Passages like John 8:44 (“he was a murderer from the beginning”) are cited to argue Satan was already fallen.
2. Ambiguity of Timing: Revelation’s symbolic nature makes it difficult to pinpoint the timing of Satan’s expulsion. Some argue Revelation 12 is retrospective, recounting a pre-creation fall, though the narrative’s placement after Christ’s ascension weakens this view.
3. Old Testament Imagery: The vivid imagery in Isaiah and Ezekiel suggests a significant fall, which many find hard to reconcile with a later expulsion. However, their human-focused context allows for alternative interpretations as prophetic types.
Despite these challenges, the presence of Satan in heavenly settings (Job, Zechariah) and the explicitness of Revelation 12 provide a robust case for a later expulsion.
The perspective that Satan was not cast out of heaven until the events of Revelation 12:7-9 offers a compelling reinterpretation of his fall, emphasizing Christ’s victory as the turning point in cosmic history. Supported by scriptures indicating Satan’s access to heaven (Job 1:6-7, Zechariah 3:1-2) and the decisive language of Revelation 12, this view reframes traditional passages like Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 as prophetic rather than historical. While challenges remain, particularly from the traditional pre-creation fall narrative, this perspective highlights the centrality of the cross in defeating Satan and reshaping the spiritual realm. Further study of Revelation’s apocalyptic context and early Christian interpretations could deepen this understanding, affirming the profound impact of Christ’s triumph over the powers of evil.
i read a lot of people asking, How are we enslaved by sin from Adam & Eve ? Why are we held accountable for their transgression ?
i think of it like this, our instincts are the summation of the experiences of our ancestors and our instincts are genetically inherited, or passed down from generation to generation.
this means our DNA is a construct of experiences, emotions, thoughts, and memories of every member in our ancestral tree; which includes Adam & Eve's transgression in the garden.
it therefore is instinctual to sin and our first response to the temptations from our environments would be to sin without a guiding hand or external desire to do otherwise.
without Yahusha Ha'Mashiach & the Holy Spirit there has been no other teacher in History to offer a way out or Hope of freedom from of the sins our ancestors have committed.
Revelation 17:1
"and there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, come hither; i will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:"
Revelation 17:3
"so he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and i saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns."
i would not be surprised if everyone was wrong about teachings of the whore of babylon being the modern sanhedrin, and it actually being kamala harris.
Revelation 17:15
"and he saith unto me, the waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."
waters being a multitude of Peoples from all nations who speak different languages. fascinating...Ezekiel also said something about a whore. connected somewhere somehow?
Ezekiel 16:28
"thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied."
Senate & Congress are discussing a Bill to replace NORAD General if a MasCal event happens.
if/when the Bill is passed it will be used to replace Elections and the Electoral College.
lets break this down further so we are clear. if there a catastrophic environmental event; Earthquake, Astroid Impact, Plane Crash, or MasCal shooting that kills a Majority of our Officials in all three Branches of Government then NORAD becomes head of government for all three branches.
what our current government wants is to enact a new SOP where our Officials choose ahead of time who will replace them instead of holding Special Elections. ie: to Select and Appoint their successors in the event of a global crisis.
and in three years will become the New Standard for how our Government is formed.
this should be a huge RED FLAG for everyone who cares about the direction our government is leading the nation.
Dubious Maximus
Below is an exploration of a theological perspective that Satan was not cast out of heaven until the events described in Revelation 12:7-9, focusing on biblical evidence, interpretive challenges, and implications. This perspective contrasts with the more common view that Satan’s fall occurred before the creation of humanity (often tied to Isaiah 14:12-15 and Ezekiel 28:12-17). This exploration is structured to provide a clear argument, supported by scripture, while acknowledging alternative interpretations.
The Case for Satan Not Being Cast Out of Heaven Until Revelation 12:7-9
The traditional Christian narrative often holds that Satan, originally an angel named Lucifer, was cast out of heaven due to pride and rebellion before the events of Genesis, setting the stage for his temptation of Adam and Eve. This view primarily draws from Isaiah 14:12-15 and Ezekiel 28:12-17, interpreted as describing Satan’s primordial fall. However, an alternative theological perspective posits that Satan retained access to heaven until the events described in Revelation 12:7-9, where he is explicitly cast out after a war in heaven. This draft examines biblical evidence supporting the idea that Satan’s expulsion occurred later, specifically in the context of Revelation, and explores the implications of this view for understanding Satan’s role in salvation history.
Primary Biblical Evidence: Revelation 12:7-9
The most explicit description of Satan’s expulsion from heaven appears in Revelation 12:7-9 (KJV):
“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”
This passage depicts a cosmic battle where Satan (the dragon) and his angels are defeated by Michael and cast out of heaven. Several elements suggest this event occurs later in salvation history, potentially during or after Christ’s earthly ministry, rather than before creation:
1. Timing in Revelation’s Narrative:
Revelation 12 is part of a visionary sequence often interpreted as encompassing events from Christ’s birth (Revelation 12:1-5, with the woman and child symbolizing Mary and Jesus) to eschatological events. The war in heaven follows the child’s ascension (Revelation 12:5), suggesting a connection to Christ’s victory through his death, resurrection, and ascension. This implies Satan’s expulsion is a consequence of Christ’s work, not a pre-creation event.
2. Definitive Language:
The phrase “neither was their place found any more in heaven” indicates a final exclusion from heaven, suggesting Satan had access until this point. This contrasts with earlier scriptures where Satan appears in heaven (e.g., Job 1:6-7), supporting the idea that his expulsion is a later development.
3. Link to Christ’s Victory:
Revelation 12:10-11 connects Satan’s casting out to the “salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ,” emphasizing the blood of the Lamb and the testimony of believers. This ties the event to the New Testament era, particularly the triumph of the cross, rather than a pre-Genesis fall.
Supporting Scriptures Indicating Satan’s Access to Heaven:
Several passages suggest Satan retained access to heaven prior to the events of Revelation 12, challenging the idea of an early expulsion:
1. Job 1:6-7 and 2:1-2 (KJV):
“Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.”
- In Job, Satan appears in God’s heavenly court among the “sons of God” (a term often denoting angels). His presence in heaven, coupled with his report of roaming the earth, suggests he still had access to the divine presence. This is significant because Job is typically dated after the events of Genesis, implying Satan was not yet fully cast out.
2. Zechariah 3:1-2 (KJV):
“And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan…”
- Here, Satan is depicted in a heavenly setting, accusing Joshua before God. His role as an accuser in God’s presence suggests he still operated within heaven’s courts, consistent with a pre-Revelation access to heaven.
3. Luke 10:18 (KJV):
“And he [Jesus] said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.”
- While often cited as evidence of an early fall, this verse can be interpreted as Jesus prophetically witnessing Satan’s defeat tied to his earthly ministry. The context (the disciples’ success in casting out demons) and the timing (during Jesus’ life) suggest this “fall” may align with the Revelation 12 event, occurring as a result of Christ’s work rather than before creation.
These passages collectively imply that Satan, while rebellious, maintained some access to heaven—perhaps as an accuser or adversary—until a decisive expulsion in Revelation 12.
Reinterpreting Traditional “Fall” Passages:
The traditional view of Satan’s pre-creation fall relies heavily on Isaiah 14:12-15 and Ezekiel 28:12-17, but these passages can be understood differently in light of the Revelation 12 perspective:
1. Isaiah 14:12-15 (KJV):
“How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground… For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven…”
- Contextually, this passage addresses the king of Babylon, with “Lucifer” (a Latin term meaning “morning star”) symbolizing human pride. While often applied to Satan, its primary focus is earthly judgment. If interpreted as referring to Satan, it could be a prophetic foreshadowing of the Revelation 12 event rather than a historical pre-creation fall.
2. Ezekiel 28:12-17 (KJV):
“Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus… Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee… I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God…”
- This lamentation targets the king of Tyre but uses imagery (e.g., “covering cherub”) that some apply to Satan. Like Isaiah, it may symbolically point to Satan’s eventual expulsion in Revelation rather than a primordial event. The language of being cast out aligns with Revelation 12’s narrative.
In both cases, these Old Testament passages may describe Satan’s ultimate downfall in a typological or prophetic sense, fulfilled in Revelation 12, rather than documenting a pre-Genesis expulsion.
If Satan was not cast out of heaven until Revelation 12, several theological implications arise:
1. Satan’s Role as Accuser:
Scriptures like Job and Zechariah portray Satan as an accuser in God’s court, a role he may have held until Christ’s victory. Revelation 12:10 notes that the “accuser of our brethren” is cast down, suggesting the cross and resurrection stripped Satan of this heavenly function, fulfilling Jesus’ defeat of the powers of evil (Colossians 2:15).
2. Christ’s Victory as Pivotal:
This view emphasizes the cross as the decisive moment in cosmic history, not only redeeming humanity but also triggering Satan’s expulsion from heaven. It underscores the centrality of Christ’s work in altering the spiritual order.
3. Eschatological Context:
Revelation 12 may describe a future or ongoing spiritual reality rather than a single historical event. Some interpret it as occurring at Christ’s ascension, others as a future eschatological judgment. This flexibility allows the passage to encompass both the cross’s immediate impact and its ultimate fulfillment.
Challenges and Counterarguments
This perspective faces several challenges:
1. Traditional Pre-Creation Fall:
The view that Satan fell before Genesis is deeply rooted, supported by the serpent’s role in Genesis 3 and the assumption that Satan’s rebellion predates human sin. Passages like John 8:44 (“he was a murderer from the beginning”) are cited to argue Satan was already fallen.
2. Ambiguity of Timing:
Revelation’s symbolic nature makes it difficult to pinpoint the timing of Satan’s expulsion. Some argue Revelation 12 is retrospective, recounting a pre-creation fall, though the narrative’s placement after Christ’s ascension weakens this view.
3. Old Testament Imagery:
The vivid imagery in Isaiah and Ezekiel suggests a significant fall, which many find hard to reconcile with a later expulsion. However, their human-focused context allows for alternative interpretations as prophetic types.
Despite these challenges, the presence of Satan in heavenly settings (Job, Zechariah) and the explicitness of Revelation 12 provide a robust case for a later expulsion.
The perspective that Satan was not cast out of heaven until the events of Revelation 12:7-9 offers a compelling reinterpretation of his fall, emphasizing Christ’s victory as the turning point in cosmic history. Supported by scriptures indicating Satan’s access to heaven (Job 1:6-7, Zechariah 3:1-2) and the decisive language of Revelation 12, this view reframes traditional passages like Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 as prophetic rather than historical. While challenges remain, particularly from the traditional pre-creation fall narrative, this perspective highlights the centrality of the cross in defeating Satan and reshaping the spiritual realm. Further study of Revelation’s apocalyptic context and early Christian interpretations could deepen this understanding, affirming the profound impact of Christ’s triumph over the powers of evil.
3 months ago | [YT] | 0
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Dubious Maximus
i read a lot of people asking, How are we enslaved by sin from Adam & Eve ? Why are we held accountable for their transgression ?
i think of it like this, our instincts are the summation of the experiences of our ancestors and our instincts are genetically inherited, or passed down from generation to generation.
this means our DNA is a construct of experiences, emotions, thoughts, and memories of every member in our ancestral tree; which includes Adam & Eve's transgression in the garden.
it therefore is instinctual to sin and our first response to the temptations from our environments would be to sin without a guiding hand or external desire to do otherwise.
without Yahusha Ha'Mashiach & the Holy Spirit there has been no other teacher in History to offer a way out or Hope of freedom from of the sins our ancestors have committed.
7 months ago | [YT] | 0
View 0 replies
Dubious Maximus
Revelation 17:1
"and there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, come hither; i will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:"
Revelation 17:3
"so he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and i saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns."
i would not be surprised if everyone was wrong about teachings of the whore of babylon being the modern sanhedrin, and it actually being kamala harris.
Revelation 17:15
"and he saith unto me, the waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."
waters being a multitude of Peoples from all nations who speak different languages. fascinating...Ezekiel also said something about a whore. connected somewhere somehow?
Ezekiel 16:28
"thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied."
1 year ago | [YT] | 1
View 0 replies
Dubious Maximus
Senate & Congress are discussing a Bill to replace NORAD General if a MasCal event happens.
if/when the Bill is passed it will be used to replace Elections and the Electoral College.
lets break this down further so we are clear.
if there a catastrophic environmental event; Earthquake, Astroid Impact, Plane Crash, or MasCal shooting that kills a Majority of our Officials in all three Branches of Government then NORAD becomes head of government for all three branches.
what our current government wants is to enact a new SOP where our Officials choose ahead of time who will replace them instead of holding Special Elections.
ie: to Select and Appoint their successors in the event of a global crisis.
and in three years will become the New Standard for how our Government is formed.
this should be a huge RED FLAG for everyone who cares about the direction our government is leading the nation.
1 year ago | [YT] | 1
View 0 replies